Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: I'm Dr. Laura Prescott, Director of Clinical training and associate professor for the clinical PsyD program at the Chicago School of Los Angeles. Today I have a very special guest with me on the podcast, one of my students, Hamaya. She is passionate about consensual non monogamy, or cnm, and is even studying it for her dissertation. So I wanted to first welcome you, Hamaya, and it's good to have you here today.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: Hi. It's so good to be here. I'm really excited to talk about cnm.
[00:00:30] Speaker A: Yes, I'm excited to talk to you about it.
So first, why don't we kick this off and tell us why is this an important topic to talk about?
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Yeah. So I believe I just started kind of looking into CNM when I would listen to Dr. Esther Perel's podcast and reading her book about just kind of like, other configurations and deviating from the norm of monogamy. And I got really interested in this concept of, like, having more than one person to kind of like, even in a family dynamic, of helping you raise children and having different options than just having monogamy as that one construct that we're all used to and we grew up with, especially coming from, like, a South Asian background where that's, there's like a mom and a dad and there's the kids and that's about it. So being here in the usa, I also just saw, like, all these other different configurations that have deviated in the last 40 years, which was kind of exciting to study and learn about.
[00:01:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that might have been an interesting transition, going from one country to another and seeing the different options that were available.
[00:01:32] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. So.
[00:01:34] Speaker A: So I'm, I'm also curious too. What are some of the pros and cons of engaging in the CNM lifestyle?
[00:01:39] Speaker B: Yeah, so I think we talk a lot about this in our dissertation course about the pros and the cons. Just kind of like thinking about the mental health aspect of it too, of having just the freedom to do more than what is norm and kind of breaking, like, the stigma of having one partner.
And I know we talked a lot about in my dissertation where we spoke about LGB community where especially bisexual women and men, you know, they are in this same social construct of like, okay, you have to pick between one or the other. And there's like, a lot of research that shows that bisexual men and women are kind of rejected from the LGBT community as well as the heterosexual community. So it's kind of nice to have this pro of like, okay, you can have one Primary partner, where you do have, like, the gender that you are most comfortable with or attracted to, but you can still have the option to, you know, have other partners and experiment and even have friendships where it could be either emotional or sexual relationships, just like, a variety of things other than just one partner. And also, it's just like a pro for those people that want to have that extra help and are polyamorous or identify as that sexuality and can have the option to have those different relationships.
[00:03:04] Speaker A: It sounds like, in terms of prose, there's a lot of exploration that it allows, a lot of trying things out and seeing diversity of. Here's things that I didn't try. Let me explore this area or let me explore that area.
[00:03:16] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I think even in the past few generations, we've seen how marriages are. You know, there are, like, a lot of divorces that are ending because of infidelity.
And you kind of have to think about, is it infidelity, or are some of these people polyamorous? And they just. They're not trying to break the rules of marriage that are constructed by society, but they just kind of have that freedom of, like, okay, maybe I do have this one special relationship in my marriage, but I do need these other things. Like, even when you think about, like, our general lives, like, we have colleagues, we have different relationships, we have friendships in friend groups that we have different relationships, and we can apply that to, like, romantic relationships as well and kind of get different. Show different parts of ourselves to different people. And also just the infidelities piece, like, if these people are, like, able to be polyamorous and explore or even have different configurations, like, have another partner, only, like, one more partner, or additional different patterns, we can just kind of have that freedom in general.
[00:04:22] Speaker A: Yeah. So I'm hearing a lot about the pros, and I'm curious what might be some cons or some of the difficult struggles if someone wants to engage in the lifestyle?
[00:04:32] Speaker B: Sure. I think a lot of people, when we think about it, is there's a lot of stigma. So I want to talk about the cons, but I think there's a lot of stigma that surrounds these kind of configurations.
So the cons kind of come from that, I think, because I think if you are educated and knowledgeable on this topic and on these different types of relationships that CNM offers, we're able to kind of minimize the cons and kind of explore how those come from, like, societal expectations. Really. Like, for one example, like, if you are a partner that is jealous of, like, a Lot of things that your partner might want to do, like emotionally or in physical aspects, this might not be for you. You know, I think there needs to be a good foundation in order to explore outside of your relationship. So if you're already in a shaky found, you probably can't do this and it might not be the best for you. And you know, I think like, I don't really know how that could be a con, but it's just kind of like might not be the best version of a relationship for you. I think also a lot of stigma comes from like SDIs, and a lot of people think that having multiple partners mean that you're, you know, sleeping around with everybody and you can catch an std, which is usually not the case in cnn. There's a lot of studies that show where, you know, when you have this open relationship with a partner, you also have open communication.
So you're able to kind of have a conversation about proper sexual partners and proper like using condoms and etc, like, you know, you are safer. And also I think one significant con that I can think of is when you have kids, it might be a little bit harder for you to kind of manage this. So you really do need to have like a very open communication line if you're gonna do that. So I think that would be like a con.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: Yeah, well, not just if you have kids, but if they have kids and then another partner has kids and there's just a giant pile of kids.
[00:06:32] Speaker B: Right. It's like the brainy bunch.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: I'm also interested to talk more about. You mentioned jealousy and that sometimes people, if they get jealous, it may not necessarily be the lifestyle for them. Even those who are comfortable engaging in the lifestyle can experience jealousy.
So it's definitely something to think about and prepare for because it can crop up even for people who are veterans in the lifestyle.
[00:06:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's a feeling, right? It's kind of like how sadness and happiness, they're all feelings. Jealousy is also a feeling. So it's. We can be rigid and say, yeah, people in CNM are jealous or not jealous. You're absolutely right on that. And I think that it's really as they come, like when a situation arises, it's all about like, how can you communicate and have a conversation and pinpoint what exactly made you jealous or where that feeling came from and how they can better protect themselves against that problem and the next time that they explore.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Yeah, so let's say somebody wants to dip their toe into the CNM lifestyle. How would one know what Type of CNM would be best for them.
[00:07:39] Speaker B: Yeah, and I think you're probably the expert on this, but I'll touch a little bit about the types that I know about. I know polyamory is kind of popularized more now in media and kind of understanding like having and open. Basically, if you're polyamorous, you are like the opposite of monogamy. So you have different configurations of cnm. Like multiple partners. It could be that you have one partner and then within that primary relationship, you can still have a secondary partner and explore outside.
And if you're swinging, I know it's usually one couple that would either go to parties that are like swinging based parties or there's. I know states, there are clubs that like legally host these parties where consensual adults can go and have like explorations with other partners that are swinging.
And there's also tropo, which is one primary relationship where you add either a female or male partner.
And then I know there's a lot of exploration in BDSM populations, which I know that we're going to kind of talk about some stories later on how most people that are in polyamorous relationship also kind of not mohs. I can't. I don't want to generalize, but like a lot of people like to explore in the BDSM realm because maybe your primary partner is not really into the kink community and the kink activities, but you are. So you get a secondary partner who you can explore with.
[00:09:10] Speaker A: So for a newer person, should they maybe dip their toe in with something like swinging first, that might be more of a party based atmosphere and then build to polyamory? Or do you think that it depends on the personality of the individual?
[00:09:24] Speaker B: What.
[00:09:24] Speaker A: What would you say would be kind of a good strategy?
[00:09:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I definitely think it's depending on your relationship and what type of dynamic you have with each other. So I think it has. If you're. It really also depends if you're single and you want to explore on these different CNM configurations or if you're in a relationship, then you have to have your partner on board and make sure that they want to do these things. And you have to have conversations on what are the rules. And even I know monogamous relationships usually have these rules kind of set in stone where, okay, this is what we are doing. We're not cheating on each other or going outside of the relationship. That's kind of like the primary rule. So for CNM relationships there are rules also. And so I know a lot of People, kind of one of their rules that I've heard from friends that are in the community that, like, they don't, you know, go outside of, like, friendship. Like, they don't date people that are friends with them or their partner or like a co worker or something that's close to home, you know. So I think if you're starting out, the best way to do is if you're in a partnership already, have an open conversation about it and see if, you know, start small. Maybe you go to a party and you don't participate, but you kind of go and take that opportunity to explore and talk to people and get to know each other and kind of see if you're comfortable with it and start slow and build up to it. And if you're single, you can do the same thing still, you know, you can still explore that on your own. And if you find a partner that's willing to do that together, you can explore that as well.
[00:10:58] Speaker A: So, next, I'm curious, why are you passionate about this topic?
[00:11:01] Speaker B: Yeah. So like I said before, it's really interesting to me that there's more than one configuration. And I think in my generation, there was a we work. It's like, in between, right? I'm a millennial, so it's kind of like the generation where I'm coming from Gen X, I believe, where it's like, a little bit more monogamy and just kind of like, even the LGBT community, there was a lot more. There wasn't a lot of outness back then. And now in our generation, seems to be the first generation that people are out and exploring these different kind of relationships, deviating from monogamy and kind of breaking the stigma. And then Gen Z seems to be, like, buck wild, you know, which is awesome to be in the middle and kind of, like, have both those values of, like, wanting the freedom and to be open and breaking the stigma.
So I think for me, it's really important because I'm all about, like, understanding different types of things. Like, if I don't understand something, I'd rather kind of learn more about it and get knowledge about it than just kind of, like, judge it and just being like, no, that's not for me, because I want to know, like, what is it? Tell me more about it. So I have a lot of friends that have explored and I've listened to these stories, and it's kind of. It's important to me to kind of break stigma and kind of be someone that is open and be a voice for that community and Just kind of. Kind of pave the way for it, you know, Even if it's just this one small dissertation at a time.
[00:12:25] Speaker A: Yeah, one small dissertation.
[00:12:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:12:28] Speaker A: So, lastly, do you have any tips or tricks for people considering the CNM lifestyle?
[00:12:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I kind of want to talk about the stories from the community I've heard.
I know that there's a lot of friends that I've had that have explored in these avenues, and I know one that was really interesting. One story was where this heterosexual couple that was really interested in just being monogamous, and then the male partner realized that he does want to explore with bdsm.
So he had this open conversation with his partner and was like, hey, this is something I want. And the partner was basically like, hey, you can explore, but it's not something that I'm interested in. So they added a third partner where, you know, they were all consensual and understanding of the relationship and had a conversation about it. And the third partner was kind of their primary partner for bdsm, if that. I don't know if that would be the. I guess the secondary partner was the BDSM partner, where they could go to clubs and kind of explore that. So I think that's a good tip. Like, the first tip would be to just kind of have that conversation and even, like, understand for yourself, like, read about it, read about cnm. There's a lot of research and articles about it and kind of understand if you're polyamorous or if you just want to explore. And you. You don't. You don't necessarily have to identify as polyamorous to explore.
And another story that I've heard is one of my friends that was also in a heterosexual couple, where the male partner was experiencing compersion, which is a really interesting subject too, where comparison is when you feel the opposite of kind of jealousy, where you're excited for your partner to experience things physically or emotionally. And so this partner really enjoyed watching their partner be pleased. And it had nothing to do with them being wanting to be pleased as well. It was just more about the visual aspect of their partner experiencing the.
The acts or sexually or emotionally. Like, even going on a date. That was, like, nice for them, you know? So I think that would be, like, a good start if you're exploring just like. Like going from that part to the next.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: Yeah, Wonderful. Thank you for the tips and tricks.
[00:14:43] Speaker B: Yeah, my pleasure.
[00:14:44] Speaker A: And once again, thank you, Hamiya, for joining me on the podcast today. It was awesome having you.
[00:14:50] Speaker B: My pleasure. This was so nice.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: All right, everyone. Once Again, this is Dr. Laura Prescott, Director of clinical training and associate professor for the clinical PsyD program at the Chicago School of Los Angeles. Thanks for tuning in.
